OT: Lessons learned in Iraq

Posted in tx.guns by a fellow, a great read!!! Pros and cons of all of the military gear used. Guns, lights, holsters... As reported by GIs in the

the > ... It was indeed a great read, and provided some flashbacks to the Vietnam era, when GIs were making many of the same sort of commentary. Some things never change, but these later remarks seem very intelligent, in the main.

One exception, at least to this reader: The remark that the 9mm Beretta lacked stopping power.

One has to wonder: how many GIs had opportunity to observe how much stopping power the 9mm actually had?

ted > ...

# # http://www.sftt.org/article06102003a.html

XM-107: The Barrett 50 cal Sniper Rifle may have been the most useful piece of equipment for the urban fight - especially for our light fighters. The XM-107 was used to engage both vehicular and personnel targets out to 1400 meters. Soldiers not only appreciated the range and accuracy but also the target effect. Leaders and scouts viewed the effect of the .50 cal round as a combat multiplier due to the psychological impact on other combatants that viewed the destruction of the target.

'My spotter positively identified a target at 1400 meters carrying an RPG on a water tower. I engaged the target. The top half of the torso fell forward out of the tower and the lower portion remained in the tower.'

# # One has to wonder: how many GIs had opportunity to observe how much stopping # power the 9mm actually had?

I was wondering the same thing, especially considering how 'overmatched' (their language) the Iraqis were. Word of mouth can do wonders at wrecking the reputation of a firearm, especially if you think your life may depend on it. Also notice the lack of anything bad to say about the M4 and compare that to the endless diatribes I see in various newsgroups and message boards about how ineffectual it is. Kind of makes you wonder who has the most prejudiced opinion - the old timers who will never forgive the M14 and Beretta for replacing their favorites or the new kids who may be placing too much emphasis on the 'cool factor'. I think the results broken down by age group would have been very interesting.

#One has to wonder: how many GIs had opportunity to observe how much stopping #power the 9mm actually had?

One also has to wonder how many GI's claimed the M249 had too much recoil based upon similar non-experience. We'll likely not know how many of the respondents actually used the weapon and then penned their thoughts on its performance, but even given that caveat in the survey I'm inclined to believe that soldiers tend to remark honestly upon those bits of gear they find less than usefuls. Hence I'm inclined to give the comments of the soldier more credence than our sideline view and mastery of the physics shown in the reloading manual.

If a guy in uniform says the 9mm is weak, it is. It's not up to us to compare it to the .45ACP. It is rather up to us to find a sidearm that is effective.

Oddly enough, Jeff Cooper tells of similar opinions in his commentaries. Granted, he's a bigot of the first order when it comes to the M1911, but I've never heard of him belittling a cartridge without due cause.

# One exception, at least to this reader: The remark that the 9mm Beretta # lacked stopping power. # # One has to wonder: how many GIs had opportunity to observe how much stopping # power the 9mm actually had?

I'll wager not very many, after all, if you've got a rifle on you how often are you going to use a handgun? Personally, I would never use a handgun unless I had no other choice. But even if I did have to use a 9mm Beretta, I'm pretty sure that it would do the job quite well. You hear all the time that the 9mm doesn't have the stopping power it should, as if one round doesn't stop an enemy every time they're hit. My question is how do you know if one round doesn't stop anyone when it's so easy to fire multiple times with a 9mm that whenever a soldier shoots it he probably fires half the magazine. I know that the NYPD sure fires lots of rounds when they shoot at someone. 9mms are so easy to shoot quickly it's hard to believe that anyone ever gets shot with only one round, unless the shooter is a lousy shot. Why else do you think the Berettas have such large magazines? Besides that, I always thought that you were supposed to keep shooting until the threat was gone, so if you use a 9mm you just naturally shoot more rounds with it. That's one of the main benefits of the 9mm. It has less recoil than the .45 auto so it's easier to control and to make multiple hits with. Considering that, I think the 9mm Beretta is a good replacement for the .45 Colt.

I was shooting at the range this evening by chance and had the opportunity to shoot a 1911 and a Browning HiPower. Both are very nice guns but they are different in how they handle. I can put those big .45 caliber rounds where I want and know that one of them placed well will stop most anybody. But I can't keep it on target as well or shoot it nearly as fast as I could the HiPower. When using the 9mm I can control it a lot better and can put a ton of rounds on target in short order. So whether one well placed .45 round stops a fight or a handful of 9mms does it the bottom line is that they both work. They work differently but they both work. A person may prefer one or the other, but in the hands of someone who knows how to use it either one will suffice.

Holly Cow!! I can't believe it! I actually agree with you Hawke (don't let this get around OK?) . What I'm actually saying is that we can disagree on things politically( boy, can we ever!) but we all can agree on our RKBA! Hey, this country ain't perfect, but it is the best that has been discovered so far!!!!

The real problem seems to be the use military ball ammo and it's habit of poking holes in things like people. They don't get to use police or even civilian hollow point ammo. Considering the report, other than a need for night sights the M9 did what It's supposed to do. The substitute standard sidearm, M11 ( or SIG 226 to us civilians probably had similar results).

> ...

#The real problem seems to be the use military ball ammo and it's habit of #poking holes in things like people. They don't get to use police or even #civilian hollow point ammo. Considering the report, other than a need for #night sights the M9 did what It's supposed to do. The substitute standard #sidearm, M11 ( or SIG 226 to us civilians probably had similar results).

The Hague Conventions, which say that small arms used by military folks must use ball ammo are rather quaint, given that they never prevented the U.S. from carpet bombing Dresden into an inferno, vaporozing Hiroshima, or napalm bombing large areas of Viet Nam. We need not even get into land mines... War is *VERY* messy.

Regards,