Newbie .223 reloading ?s

Been reloading .45ACP for awhile, and I now want to start reloading for my .223 AR clone w/a 24' barrel. I do not hunt; just looking for more consistent groups at 100 yards. I purchased a Lee die set (w/crimp die), Hodgdons (sp?) Varget powder, and CCI small rifle primers. I followed the directions that came w/the die set, and when de-priming/resizing the cases (using case lube both inside and outside), I noticed some light 'crimps/dents' around the taper of the case. I assume I adjusted the die in a bit too far. Other 'unprocessed' cases ran the rifle only have, at most, a light mark from the extractor. The damage was noticed after priming the cases. Any real concerns about using the aforementioned cases? I think they will chamber w/no problems. Also, do I need to crimp the case after the bullet has been seated? I have heard that gas guns should not have the cases crimped and bolt guns should. Further, in general, are loads on the hotter side more accurate on gas guns? Forgive me if these are remedial questions, but I am on the low end of the learning curve on rifle cartridge reloading and have always gotten good advise on this group. I am consulting w/three manuals for load data.

Thanks in advance,

Ron http://home.earthlink.net/~clickfam/mondo.htm

Antoine-Marie-Roger de Saint-Exupery It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye

I meant Valmet, not Varget. Sorry.... # Been reloading .45ACP for awhile, and I now want to start reloading for my # .223 AR clone w/a 24' barrel. I do not hunt; just looking for more # consistent groups at 100 yards. I purchased a Lee die set (w/crimp die), # Hodgdons (sp?) Varget powder, and CCI small rifle primers. I followed the # directions that came w/the die set, and when de-priming/resizing the cases # (using case lube both inside and outside), I noticed some light # 'crimps/dents' around the taper of the case. I assume I adjusted the die in # a bit too far. Other 'unprocessed' cases ran the rifle only have, at most, # a light mark from the extractor. The damage was noticed after priming the # cases. Any real concerns about using the aforementioned cases? I think # they will chamber w/no problems. Also, do I need to crimp the case after # the bullet has been seated? I have heard that gas guns should not have the # cases crimped and bolt guns should. Further, in general, are loads on the # hotter side more accurate on gas guns? Forgive me if these are remedial # questions, but I am on the low end of the learning curve on rifle cartridge # reloading and have always gotten good advise on this group. I am consulting # w/three manuals for load data. # # Thanks in advance, # # Ron # http://home.earthlink.net/~clickfam/mondo.htm # # Antoine-Marie-Roger de Saint-Exupery # It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is # invisible to the eye #

What is 'Valmet'? Dents are caused by using too much lube when resizing. Very important to crimp 223 cases in an AR-15 and the Lee Factory Crimp Die is the best for this operation. I push my 55 grain bullets at 3100 FPS using 26.0 grains of Varget.

# Been reloading .45ACP for awhile, and I now want to start reloading for my # .223 AR clone w/a 24' barrel. I do not hunt; just looking for more # consistent groups at 100 yards. I purchased a Lee die set (w/crimp die), # Hodgdons (sp?) Varget powder, and CCI small rifle primers. I followed the # directions that came w/the die set, and when de-priming/resizing the cases # (using case lube both inside and outside), I noticed some light # 'crimps/dents' around the taper of the case. I assume I adjusted the die in # a bit too far. Other 'unprocessed' cases ran the rifle only have, at most, # a light mark from the extractor. The damage was noticed after priming the # cases. Any real concerns about using the aforementioned cases? I think # they will chamber w/no problems. Also, do I need to crimp the case after # the bullet has been seated? I have heard that gas guns should not have the # cases crimped and bolt guns should. Further, in general, are loads on the # hotter side more accurate on gas guns? Forgive me if these are remedial # questions, but I am on the low end of the learning curve on rifle cartridge # reloading and have always gotten good advise on this group. I am consulting # w/three manuals for load data. #

The dents are probably from using too much case lube . You want a very small ammount on the case and none on the outside of the top part of the case where the taper to the neck is. YOu can shoot the bullets if they will chamber . YOu should not need to crimp the bullets. The bolt guns would not need a crimp as much as the gas guns would.

Gas guns are not to be loaded hot but they are designed to operate with pressuer limitations. The wrong kind of powder or two much will put undue stress on the action. Go the other way and you get problems of not ejecting and loading the next round. Check to see if the loads you are using are recommended for the autoloader.

The Lee factory crimping dies do a nice job. I reload .45LC and .38 and ..357 with my Lee Loadmaster. I get very nice looking loads with a beautiful crimp on them. I would think if you are looking for better groups you would need to crimp the cartridges. Try it both ways and see what the results are. Or better yet if you are that concerned about it look at some factory ammo that shoots well in your gun and see if they are crimped.

Jeff

> ... in > ... most, > ... the > ... cartridge > ... consulting > ...

# I followed the #directions that came w/the die set, and when de-priming/resizing the cases #(using case lube both inside and outside), I noticed some light #'crimps/dents' around the taper of the case. I assume I adjusted the die in #a bit too far. Other 'unprocessed' cases ran the rifle only have, at most, #a light mark from the extractor. The damage was noticed after priming the #cases. Any real concerns about using the aforementioned cases? I

Even *new* dies should be checked to make sure the little 'bleed' hole in the side of the die is unobstructed. It will be down below the lock ring among the threads. The bleed hole lets out trapped air. Over lubeing brass can lead to the same type dents. Firing ammo with those little dents just irons the dents out. Bill Van Houten (USA Ret)

Thermopylae had it's messenger of defeat, COME AND GET THEM ! The Alamo had none.

Could be too much lube left on the case. Wipe them off before you send them into the die.

> ... in > ... most, > ... the > ... cartridge > ... consulting > ...

One thing to watch out for (that bit me in the butt when I started reloading ..223) is the overall length of the cartridge case. If you are going to crimp your cases, ensure all of your cases are the same length. Trimming or sorting your cases will save you time and $ in the end if you are going to crimp. (I do not crimp my rounds for my Encore, I do crimp my cases for my AR)

Have fun

as others stated, the dents are probably from too much lube. it used to happen to me once in a while when i first started loading bottleneck cartridges.

as for functioning in a semi-auto, i have found better accuracy (and more reliable operation) when using loads closer to max levels than minimum. you have to consider most factory loads are near max, and the rilfe is designed to function with factory ammo. i am not saying lower-power loads won't work, just that hotter loads seem to work best. i say this after reloading 1000s of rounds of .223 ammo and using it in MANY semi-auto rifles.

andy b.

wrote:

> ...

I recently started reloading for my AR and got a ton of great advice from this group. I'm using exactly the same setup, except I'm actually using Varget, along with Reloader 7 and H335, all of which are working great. The Hodgdon ball powder is a bit too fine to use with the Lee measure; it leaks out through all of the cracks and seams, but it shoots very nicely.

If you are denting the case shoulders on resizing, you may be over-lubricating the case; air gets trapped inside the die or something like that. You should only have to apply lubricant to the straight walls of the case, and inside and outside the case mouth. This is a real pain with the Lee wax lube; you might try some of the spray lubes. A tip if you're using Lee case lube, a very thin coat, almost invisible, will get the job done.

If you're reloading your own cases, consider sizing only the neck; you can accomplish this with the Lee die by setting it several turns higher, but special dies exist. Your fired cases should fit into the rifle they were fired from without jamming.

You probably do not need to crimp at all for .223. There is a lot of surface area for the neck to grab the bullet; other cartridges are more likely to require crimping. I was concerned about bullets backing out so I experimented with some handloads. I measured each cartridge OAL with a micrometer, and then fired them through my AR, ejecting every other round so that I could re-measure them. None of them showed any backing out from the action slamming shut; nor did any of them push farther in from hitting the feed ramp. I concluded that I could skip the crimp step.

I also noticed that when I stopped crimping, I got much more consistent velocites and tighter groups.

You might prefer to crimp anyway if you are loading for hunting. This is because you are more likely to extract an unfired round, and depending on the bullet used, it is possible to grab a bullet in the rifling and twist it out of the case on extraction, leaving you with a rifle full of loose powder and a bullet jammed in the chamber, which means you're going home early if you don't have something to poke it out with.

For your AR, there is probably a 'sweet spot' (as far as powder charge goes) that will get you the tightest groups. For most 20' barrels, it is somewhere around 2900 fps. It has to do with mechanical resonance of the barrel. Depending on things like stainless vs. moly, fluting vs. non-, or barrel weight, a longer barrel could shoot best at a higher or lower velocity. One or more of your manuals might list the particular barrel used for testing, as well as a 'best accuracy' load, which may work for your barrel. It's not always the hottest load, though. You might also try loading five or ten rounds each of several loads, using the same powder, bullet, case, and primer but varying the charge, and group them with a scope and a good rest. I used this approach but found the best load to be the same one in my sierra book. If you have a chrono, it will be a big help in determining how good a job you are doing at measuring and case preparation.

Also remember that when you reload for a gas gun, loading too light is as hazardous as loading too hot. The port pressure can become too high as a result of the bullet spending more time in the barrel.

Hi Ron!!!

Re: your post:

# Been reloading .45ACP for awhile, and I now want to start reloading for my # .223 AR clone w/a 24' barrel. I do not hunt; just looking for more # consistent groups at 100 yards. I purchased a Lee die set (w/crimp die), # Hodgdons (sp?) Varget powder, and CCI small rifle primers. I followed the # directions that came w/the die set, and when de-priming/resizing the cases # (using case lube both inside and outside), I noticed some light # 'crimps/dents' around the taper of the case. I assume I adjusted the die in # a bit too far. Other 'unprocessed' cases ran the rifle only have, at most, # a light mark from the extractor. The damage was noticed after priming the # cases. Any real concerns about using the aforementioned cases? I think # they will chamber w/no problems. Also, do I need to crimp the case after # the bullet has been seated? I have heard that gas guns should not have the # cases crimped and bolt guns should. Further, in general, are loads on the # hotter side more accurate on gas guns? Forgive me if these are remedial # questions, but I am on the low end of the learning curve on rifle cartridge # reloading and have always gotten good advise on this group. I am consulting # w/three manuals for load data.<<<

Dents. . . The 'dents' are quite possible (probable) from too much lube on the cases. From more than 20+ years of reloading pistol/revolver/rifle ammunition, that less is more. I have walked away from the lube pads and the sticky lubes and walked to 'Dillon's Case Lube'. It is a spray, that when applied 'sparingly' and allowing the liquid 'carrier' to dry, the cases are ready to be sized. 'Key' word is 'sparingly.' Hydraulic pressure from the lube and the sizing die is what is denting your cases. #From a visual standpoint, yes, they look unsightly. From the point of being o.k. to use, yes, the dent(s) will just 'blow-out' to the chamber dimension/shape.

Powders. . . . I have been using Hogdon's H-335 for literally, years. My current load is 23.0 grains under a Sierra 69 gr. BTHP. This is about half-way between 'medium' and 'maximum' from my books/charts.

Primers. . . . I have had 'not good' luck with CCI primers. I have been using Winchester SR or Federal 205M (Match) primers, mostly. I use the 205M's when I am shooting longer distances. They have performed flawlessly, is the only reason.

Bullets. . . . Sierra . . . Period.

Cases. . . . Winchester, or preferably Federal. Federal brass is more consistent (from my experience) than any others. Here again, it is personal preference (and accuracy obtained.)

Crimp or not. . . . In a 'gas' gun, ABSOLUTELY!!! The first time you have a bullet either get pushed back into the case (and spill powder either into the magazine or the action), or get pulled out and jam against the magazine to the point that the other cases will not get raised up to be chambered, you will know what I am talking about. In a situation where you are being 'timed' such as a competition, and any of the above happen, you will be a convert. (Side note: I watched a friend of mine in a High Power Match, single loading his AR drop the round in through the ejection port, the round was not laying directly on the mag follower, and when he closed the bolt, the bullet went straight into the case and the resultant action was powder came out of the case and got into the bolt 'lockup' area and jammed the rifle to the point that he lost 7 shots out of 10 in that string.) He DID NOT crimp his cases, until then. I have done the same thing, and it has only pushed the bullet back a tiny bit. I guess I got 'lucky.'

Also, with a 'MODERATE' crimp, you will get more consistency, shot to shot. Note: Cases should be trimmed after being sized (to 1.750', and 'chamfered' inside and out, to obtain a consistent crimp.

Accuracy. . . Using the above data, my rifle (Colt pre-ban HBAR) I consistently

(That's about 5/8'

As for this data, check for signs of elevated pressure (flattened primers, etc.) before relying totally on this load. This load is safe in MY rifle. Check yours. This is just good, safe reloading practice.

I hope that this information is useful.