I'm looking at a colt 45 model 1911. It's patents are: Apr 2...

5 years ago #1
teryiam
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I'm looking at a colt 45 model 1911. It's patents are: Apr 20 1987, Sept 9 1902, Dec 19 1905, Feb 14 1911 Aug 19 1913 Colts PT.F.A.MFG Co Hartford, CT USA A "P" marking No (serifs) on the area visible through the ejection port will be correctly oriented when the pistol is pointing Vertically and the barrel is viewed looking directly at the ejection port. There is a noncircled horse on the rear left of the slide. Just above the clip eject button there is s17 with the eagle above. On the right side of the weapon the serial no is a large N small o with a line under the o followed by a three digit number. Again NoXXX with a line under the o. I believe the slide to be early and the frame 1918 Remington-UMC. It has a reblue job of about 75-80 percent. I am unable to see any more markings from the pictures. If anyone can help I would sure appreciate it. Need to know more about the slide and barrel and value.

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5 years ago #2
KerryL
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Nice descriptions!

If the slide lettering uses serifs, the slide would be approximately SN 83,856 to 247,291 which would date it 1914 to 1918. If it uses sans serifs it would be approximately 247,292 to 275,000 (which is when the pony was moved to the middle of the slide), 1918 production.

As far as the serial number goes, The Rem UMC markings have both the N and O capitalized with no underline. Also, Rem UMC frames had the inspection mark E.E.C. (possibly L.E.B.) above the eagle's head and under the eagle's head would be the letter E with number(s), not the letter S. I really don't see any way this is a Rem UMC frame.

Given the eagle's head with the letter S under it, I'm inclined to think the frame is from a 1918-1919 Colt. If you're looking at pictures, the rest of the serial number (which should be 300,000 - 629,000) has been photo-shopped out or it was buffed out by whoever reblued the pistol.

As far as the barrel goes, given the orientation you described, it sounds like either a WE Strong or Frank Hosmer provisional mark (if Hosmer, the H was probably too lightly struck for you to see it on the pictures). These fit the Colt range for sn 110,000 to 425,000 (1915-1918).

So, given all this, it sounds like either:

1) a correct Colt 1918 with the sn photo-shopped out, or

2) a mixture of 1915-1919 Colt parts with the sn buffed out (making the pistol illegal). If this is the case, leave this gun alone.

If option "2", there are other parts that need to be identified (magazine, grips, small parts) to determine if the pistol is correct. If it is correct, than value is determined by the finish.

If it was professionally reblued, it could be worth $1000+

If Uncle Mortimer did it with a buffing wheel and a tube of cold blue, probably more like $400.

Hope this helps!

Kerry

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5 years ago #3
teryiam
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Hi,
Thanks for the reply. I had read but now can't find that Remington went to the capital NOXXX after restarting production on the frames. Prior to about 1945 the Remington frames were the No with the o underlined. Just can't find the refererance. The eagle and s17 are supposed to be Springfied armory. The grips have the number of lines for a Remington. I will send some pics.
Thanks,
Terry

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5 years ago #4
KerryL
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You're confusing Remington UMC (the Remington firearms company) that made 1911's during WWI and Remington Rand (the office machinery company) that made 1911A1's during WWII.

The photo you sent is of a 1911 frame, not a 1911A1 frame (among other changes, A1 frames had a bevel behind the trigger). Remington UMC did start with serial number 1 with the NO prefix as I described in my last post. Remington Rands started with approximately sn 916,405, and they did change their prefix from NO to No as you mentioned.

Springfield's ordnance marking was the flaming bomb, not the eagle's head. The eagle's head was either Colt or Remington UMC on WWI 1911's.

The grip checkering that you mentioned is as follows; 11 rows of checkering on Springfield's, 13 on Rem UMC's, 15 on Colt's.

I'm sticking with my earlier comments about the frame. I can't tell from the photo if it was edited or if the gun has had the sn changed.

Let's get back to basics Terry. If you are looking to start a collection of military 1911's, you need to educate yourself and do a lot of research prior to buying. Original, correct 1911/1911A1's are getting more and more difficult to find, and they hold a premium in pricing. Many people are trying to sell non-correct and/or non-original pistols for absurd prices, hoping to find someone that hasn't done their homework...don't be that guy.

I would be happy to steer you to a couple good websites or books if you'd like to start learning about these pistols. Let me know what I can do to help.

Kerry

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5 years ago #5
teryiam
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Hear is a picture of the marking and the info from a website. http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/who_made_it.htm
Thanks,
Terry >

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5 years ago #6
KerryL
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Springfield Armory was not a private manufacturer. Springfield was the US Govt armory which made arms for the military. It was also home of the Army's Ordnance department, so it was in charge of final inspection of private company's guns during WWI.

The reference you see regarding Springfield doesn't mean that the pistol was made by Springfield, it simply describes the final Springfield inspector's stamp (in this case, the eagle's head with an S below indicating a Colt manufactured pistol).

You are looking at a refinished (possibly illegal) pistol. I don't know what the guy is asking, but again, my advice is to get educated before you jump on someone's "great deal".

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5 years ago #7
teryiam
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Hello,
I am not trying to say that the frame is a Springfield. I believe it to be a early 1919 Remington with a Springfield armory inspection stamp. The serial No461 indicates, by all the charts that I have found, to be an early 1919 Remington. The grip line count figures to a remington. Think it is a Rem. frame with a Colt slide. If this is a Colt frame the SR means Colt: S/N 1 to 3190 = April 16, 1912 to May 31, 1912

Terry

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5 years ago #8
KerryL
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You know what Terry - you're absolutely right. I am sorry for filling your head with all this nonsense. You should buy the pistol. It is worth exactly what the seller is asking. Have a nice day.

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5 years ago #9
teryiam
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KerryL,
Not trying to get you upset. I just find it hard to believe that this is a 1912 frame with a later colt slide. Is it even possible that these two parts could have been assembled at Springfield?
Terry

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5 years ago #10
KerryL
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I never said it was a 1912 frame. I said it was a 1918 or 1919 Colt frame that either had the serial number edited in the picture or the number was changed when the pistol was refinished. I also gave clear instructions on how to date the slide, which was made by Colt between 1914 and 1918. I also gave you clear reasoning on why the frame is not a Remington UMC - the prefix to the sn is wrong and the lettering under the eagle's head is wrong.

In my opinion, you are either looking at a circa 1918 Colt pistol that has been refinished (which I gave you my thoughts on pricing) or a pistol that has had the sn altered, in which case you should definitely leave it alone.

I don't know why you insist on trying to make this pistol something it is not, but if you don't believe what I am telling you, than I suggest you stop asking for my opinions.

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3 years ago #11
cre.ate.ive.1
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i like ur responses buddy.... i'd like to pose a question of my own; i have a 1911 Aug. 19,1913 Colt's PT.F.A.MFG.CO. (on the slide of course) followed by & just to the right of is a flaming "S" bomb logo........on left side of trigger guard is a triangle with either a bugle in it or letters JP or a Wing???? right side of frame = GOVERNMENT MODEL C 24435 , i inherited from my grandpa who was in WWII & Korea (Naval Commander & special weapons task force....H bomb etc etc..) i got his service pistol which is an automatic .380 , so not likely issued to him, maybe it was messed with b4 i got it or .....i also had an uncle in WWI that may have given the 45 to my grandpa....which do u think is more likely or do neither fit...?

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3 years ago #12
Tristan
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Your grandpa's .45 is a mixmaster but a cool and nice-looking one. It is an early Colt Government Model frame with an AJ Savage slide on it, which is a WW1-era replacement part. It looks like the pistol has been updated with later parts (triger and grips) and then reblued. All of those things kill the collector value, but it is a nice-looking pistol nonetheless that would bring some $$$s from someone who wants a nice-looking 1911 regardless of correctness.

How about posting pictures of the .380? Start a new thread tho, we're hijacking this one.

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2 months ago #13
pat
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I have the same one had it for over 30 yr seal no is 0050 wondering about it valus

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2 months ago #14
Blackjack33
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Pat - note that you are posting in someone else's thread and it over three years old (look in upper right corner of the post). If you would like to know the value of your gun, start your own new thread in the Colt Category and give us the complete serial number and several clear, close photos showing both sides of the gun so we can clearly see all of the markings on the frame and slide. Do not use a flash.

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2 months ago #15
Keydet92
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I would like to thank Pat for digging this old thread up. That is a very entertaining exchange between Terry and Kerry above.

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2 months ago #16
pat
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I did see it was old post not a lot of info on the old colts have collection of lot of them most
Revolvers anything that says colt.,got them when I was in the. Army .retired 2012 .need to get some values to put on my insurance policy. Take care.

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