.32 SW blackpowder ammunition

I want to write an article about several 32 S&W (short) revolvers in my collection, one an H&R Vest Pocket (essentially a Suicide Special, but a cut above the average and in good condition), the other a S&W 1st Model Safety Hammerless in like-new condition. The article would include the results of firing tests with both guns.

Neither of these guns should be fired with modern 32 S&W smokeless ammo, so I need some black powder or black powder equivalent (Pyrodex, Cleanshot, etc.) cartridges. I want full power loads, as similar to the ammo sold circa 1900 as possible. About 100 rounds should do me. Can anyone provide them or tell me where I might get them?

Please reply by email as well as to the Forum.

Thanks,

#I want to write an article about several 32 S&W (short) revolvers in my #collection, one an H&R Vest Pocket (essentially a Suicide Special, but a cut #above the average and in good condition), the other a S&W 1st Model Safety #Hammerless in like-new condition. The article would include the results of #firing tests with both guns. # #Neither of these guns should be fired with modern 32 S&W smokeless ammo, so I #need some black powder or black powder equivalent (Pyrodex, Cleanshot, etc.) #cartridges. I want full power loads, as similar to the ammo sold circa 1900 as #possible. About 100 rounds should do me. Can anyone provide them or tell me #where I might get them? #

Have you tried Old Western Scrounger?
http://www.ows-ammunition.com/cgi-bin/store/store.cgi

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'We believe that the machine gun, submachine gun, sawed off shotgun and dangerous and deadly weapons could all be included in any kind of a bill. And no matter how drastic, we will support it.'

I tried Old Western Srounger. They have no blackpowder .32 S&W Short.

>I want to write an article about several 32 S&W (short) revolvers in my >collection, one an H&R Vest Pocket (essentially a Suicide Special, but a >cut >above the average and in good condition), the other a S&W 1st Model >Safety >Hammerless in like-new condition. The article would include the results >of >firing tests with both guns.

>Neither of these guns should be fired with modern 32 S&W smokeless ammo, >so I >need some black powder or black powder equivalent (Pyrodex, Cleanshot, >etc.) >cartridges. I want full power loads, as similar to the ammo sold circa >1900 >as >possible. About 100 rounds should do me. Can anyone provide them or >tell me >where I might get them?

>Please reply by email as well as to the Forum.

>Thanks, >Phil

Even though some of those revolvers might have been manufactured before smokeless powder came into common usage, most factory loadings of modern smokeless ammo in that caliber should not do any damage to them. Most factory loadings of smokeless ammo for much larger calibers can be safely used in 1873 Colt SAA revolvers, even though many of those types of revolvers were manufactured long before smokeless powder ever came into use. Ammunition manufacturers know that ammunition in some calibers might be used in some very old revolvers. For that reason they load them very lightly. They print warnings on the boxes of revolver ammo if the ammo is intended for use only in very modern arms. If the ammo is of a caliber which is common in rifles as well as in revolvers (.32-20 caliber, for example), and if the ammo is too hot for use in a revolver, the manufacturer will print a warning on the box saying that the ammo is intended for use in rifles only.

I believe almost all of the factory ammo sold for revolvers circa 1900 were smokeless powder loadings.

When you get around to writing your article please send me a copy of it. I have always been curious to know about how well those types of vintage revolvers shoot.

Sam Heywood

Dear Sam:

You are right that it is unlikely that modern smokeless ammo will present a safety problem when fired in blackpowder era firearms in good condition. However, the guns can be damaged if subjected to a steady diet of smokeless loads.

The damage manifests itself as a gradual stretching of the frame resulting in increased cylinder end play, headspace and cylinder-barrel gap. The guns 'loosen up.' In most cases this damage cannot be fully repaired, since many of these guns have barrels integral with the frames, so the barrels cannot be set back to close up cylinder-barrel gap.

It is true that modern smokeless ammo in the old blackpowder calibers like 32 S&W is loaded light to prevent old guns from blowing up, but smokeless powder has a sharper pressure curve than black and 'hammers' a gun in a way that black does not do. Even though the blackpowder load may produce more velocity/energy than a smokeless load, the smoleless load still may overstress the gun.

How important this may be depends on the gun. If I were testing an ordinary well used H&R Young American 'Suicide Special' I probably would not bother with the expense and aggravation of getting special blackpowder ammo made up. Such guns are cheap even today and have little collector value. But the guns I want to test are different. My S&W 32 First Model Safety Hammerless is a valuable arm in like new condition with considerable collector interest. My H&R 32 Vest Pocket is an unusual handgun (one inch barrel, no sights) and appears virgin. The rounds I put through it may be the first it has ever fired. I would like to use the proper ammo. Incidentally, blackpowder ammo was loaded and sold right into the 1920's.

See the book Gunsmithing the Guns of the Old West by master gunsmith David R. Chicoine. Mr. Chicoine, now retired, worked on several of my revolvers in the past. He speaks from a lifetime of experience with firearms of all kinds.

Regards,

>Dear Sam:

>You are right that it is unlikely that modern smokeless ammo will >present a >safety problem when fired in blackpowder era firearms in good condition.

You are probably right in the case of almost all pistols and revolvers. There is some factory loaded smokeless ammo in 45-70 caliber that is way too hot for use with the old 'trap-door' Springfields. Warnings about that are printed on the box. Other smokeless factory ammo in 45-70 caliber is loaded safe enough for use in the old trapdoors. Also, and as I have mentioned before, there is some factory loaded .32-20 ammo that is safe for rifles but not for revolvers. Warnings are printed on the box. It is unsafe to fire smokeless powder shotgun shells in damascus barrel shotguns, which were quite common in the black powder era.

>However, the guns can be damaged if subjected to a steady diet of >smokeless >loads.

>The damage manifests itself as a gradual stretching of the frame >resulting in >increased cylinder end play, headspace and cylinder-barrel gap. The >guns >'loosen up.' In most cases this damage cannot be fully repaired, since >many >of >these guns have barrels integral with the frames, so the barrels cannot >be set >back to close up cylinder-barrel gap.

I have seen this kind of damage even in some modern era revolvers made by Colt and by S&W, but only in some that very obviously have been shot a lot, and I do mean a lot.

>It is true that modern smokeless ammo in the old blackpowder calibers >like 32 >S&W is loaded light to prevent old guns from blowing up, but smokeless >powder >has a sharper pressure curve than black and 'hammers' a gun in a way >that >black >does not do. Even though the blackpowder load may produce more >velocity/energy >than a smokeless load, the smoleless load still may overstress the gun.

>How important this may be depends on the gun. If I were testing an >ordinary >well used H&R Young American 'Suicide Special' I probably would not >bother >with >the expense and aggravation of getting special blackpowder ammo made up. > Such >guns are cheap even today and have little collector value. But the guns >I >want >to test are different. My S&W 32 First Model Safety Hammerless is a >valuable >arm in like new condition with considerable collector interest. My H&R >32 >Vest >Pocket is an unusual handgun (one inch barrel, no sights) and appears >virgin. >The rounds I put through it may be the first it has ever fired. I would >like >to use the proper ammo. Incidentally, blackpowder ammo was loaded and >sold >right into the 1920's.

I didn't know that it was common to find new factory loaded black powder ammo in the 1920's. Nowadays you can still find factory loaded black powder ammo, but produced only by a few minor league ammunition manufacturers who are trying to meet the limited demands of a very small base of customers. This black powder ammo made by the minor league manufacturers is said to be of very good quality and it is very pricey.

>See the book Gunsmithing the Guns of the Old West by master gunsmith >David R. >Chicoine. Mr. Chicoine, now retired, worked on several of my revolvers >in the >past. He speaks from a lifetime of experience with firearms of all >kinds.

Thanks for your reply and comments. Very informative post.

Sam Heywood

Phil, You might consider looking on the Auction Arms web page (www.auctionarms.com) for original ammo. Remington made black powder cartridges well into the 1900s. The boxes are clearly marked Black Powder. On concern is that the cartridges in the box be the originals, and not replaced. That would require that you pull the bullets on a few to check. Another option is to have someone load them for you. Guy H.